This really ticks me off!

[Jeepflexin]

:mad:



I picked this up off another forum, forgive the liberal web page, looks like they are out to crucify this cop:

http://www.examiner.com/x-24111-Liberal-Issues-Examiner~y2009m12d21-You-dont-bring-a-gun-to-a-snowball-fight-Commentary

No one seems to get that assault with a snowball is still assault, that cop should have locked every single one of them up. I can't believe he is getting railroaded like this, today I am embarrassed for my fellow Americans. I hope he gets his gun and badge back.

BTW I open carried my .44 special on the dash of my truck through over 40 hours of plow time this past storm.:smile:

[Jeepflexin]

Here is an unedited version that shows more accurately what went down:

uAgQKJuriIo

Clearly the crowd knew this guy was a cop from the door and continued to throw snowballs and taunt him. What a bunch of scum bags.

They aught to give the cop a medal! :cop:

[Aries]

I have mix feelings about what happened in DC? I've heard so many different accounts on the 911 call before the officer arrived that it hard to say what was going though his head. But I will say that some point in the future that someone in that crowd will be in a situation that they will wish that officer was there with his badge and gun.

Most of the ones in the crowd throwing the snow balls were the same ones protesting Global Warming

[Mr.Skellington]

That officer is a disgrace.
He not only created a situation but he further escalated the situation by drawing a deadly weapon where there was no lethal threat.
I'll repeat that, there was no lethal threat.

Now anyone who has at least taken a CCW class knows that you can't draw down on just anyone for any reason. An officer of the law is held to even higher standards than your average CCW holder.


Let me put it this way, do you think you'd keep your CCW permit if you pulled this same stunt?

That guy needs some anger management and a new line of work stat.

[Aries]

That officer is a disgrace.
He not only created a situation but he further escalated the situation by drawing a deadly weapon where there was no lethal threat. I can agree with that. I still have not heard the truth on why he was there. First I heard he was responding to a call "Man with a gun" That may explain why he got out of his H2 with a firearm? Then I read that he was just riding by and his H2 got hit with a snow ball. He then stopped, got out with his firearm and started trouble? The second officer was call to the scene because a call came in "Man with a gun". Due to the first officers action? Won't know until the 911 tape are released.
That guy needs some anger management
Most definitely. Why even stop just to raise hell? When I would work in center city Wilmington every day when there was snow or ice my van would get hit at lease once. And I never stopped.

Now anyone who has at least taken a CCW class should know that you can't draw down on just anyone for any reason.
Not to change the subject but quite often I get calls from CCW holders asking question regarding the laws of this State pertaining to the use of deadly force for self defense; I even had a few back in the summer that took my Advance Class tell me that the class they took was very weak on the subject and left a lot of unanswered questions.

[Jeepflexin]

That officer is a disgrace.
He not only created a situation but he further escalated the situation by drawing a deadly weapon where there was no lethal threat.
I'll repeat that, there was no lethal threat..

I disagree, he took a situation that was already escalating and controlled it until his back up arrived.

Now anyone who has at least taken a CCW class knows that you can't draw down on just anyone for any reason. An officer of the law is held to even higher standards than your average CCW holder..

I have a real problem with any CCW holder comparing themselves to a law enforcement officer. This cop did not draw on anyone, he drew his weapon and never pointed it anywhere but down; so I don't get how you think he drew it on anyone, he simple drew it and used it as a visual deterrent to the crowd. Like it or not it was a good call on his part, it guaranteed his safety as well as the safety of any other citizens driving by.


Let me put it this way, do you think you'd keep your CCW permit if you pulled this same stunt?

Hardly, but I'm not a cop either. I'd have drove off, a citizen (even a CCW)does not have a responsibility to public safety, a police officer does.


That guy needs some anger management and a new line of work stat.

I'd pin a medal on his chest, I'd feel better if most cops acted the way this guy did.

#1) This guy was not a CCW holder he was a police officer on duty, even if he wasn't on duty he has a duty to react to a situation like the one he arrived upon. Had he been a CCW that would make him a citizen with no responsibility to public protection.

#2) The best evidence that I can offer that he did the right thing is no one got hurt, he never pointed the weapon at anyone, he did have it out and ready, maybe as a reaction to the possible "gun in the crowd" call as others have indicated but more likely as a reaction to the size of the crowd. Had he pointed into the crowd or discharged the weapon that would have been unnecessary but the simple act of having it unholstered I have no problem with. The group he was facing down was easily 40-50+ people strong, and it is no secret that criminals don't respect the badge, the gun is where a police officer guarantees his command of a satiation. Had the cop had a billy club in his hand instead of his weapon I bet he would have gotten jumped and we would be talking about the dumb cop who brought a billy club to a riot. The firearm kept the crowd in check until back up arrived.

#3) I've heard some say he should have drove off and called for back up. Had he been a civilian (even a CCW) I would agree that driving off is 100% the right move. However there is little doubt in my mind that this incident was going to continue to escalate until it resulted in either property damage or people injury. Because this cop had the presence of mind to stop he kept any further escalation of the incident, and kept the crowd focused on him, including him taking a snowball to the head.


Here is how I look at it: Had this cop not stopped and my wife and child were the next car to come through, who is to say their car wold not have been the one that things escalated on agian? How would I feel if the crowd broke a window in my wife car and my daughter ended up with glass bits embedded in her face? How would you feel if it were your family? Who would pay for the property damage? Who would pay for the medical bills? Lastly what would public opinion be if my family was injured and it was discovered that the cop had just drove off because he was afraid to stand against the crowd?

This is why this cop is a hero to me; he took control of a situation that could have really turned bad in a lot of different ways, no further escalation of the situation happened after he involved himself. The worst that happened because he had his firearm drawn was a few drunken jerks got intimidated and or scared. I have a real hard time feeling sorry for those folks who got intimidated because a police officer drew his weapon. Had this cop pointed the weapon or discharged it with out the crowd giving just reason to and I would agree he went to far but the fact to me is he did not go to far he showed good judgment and restraint and his actions alone kept any innocent citizen from getting hurt or their property from getting damaged.

Before anyone judges this cop on his actions they need to think about what this cop could have prevented though his actions. The end result of no injuries or property damage speak for themselves.

[Mr.Skellington]

Its not a matter of comparing a LEO to a CCW holder, its a matter of recognizing that police are people who must observe the law the same as anyone else. Being a LEO does not entitle them a pass to act inappropriately. Being a LEO doesn't mean they should be placed on some fantastic pedestal. When they mess up they need to be held accountable. Once you recognize this you'll see that a CCW drawing inappropriately is the same as a LEO drawing inappropriately.

The black officer chose to draw a gun rather than a badge. I've watched a number of different videos of this encounter and none of them show this man holding a badge at any point. This might be why the crowd was panicky and calling 911 about a "man with a gun".

Even if people were to non-stop pelt him with snowballs that act would not constitute the use of lethal force on the part of this officer. So why draw the gun in the first place, to incite fear? Its inappropriate. I won't accept the use of fear tactics by officers.


If this officer was interested in dispersing the crowd for safety reasons why didn't he call in for uniformed help and wait?
That would have been a rational course of action rather than to get out of his hummer and escalate a situation. Instead of calmly telling people that fun time is over or not to hit passing cars (as other more rational officers later did) he chose to act like a common thug. The wonderful Samuel L Jackson impression was great though, instead of "Say what one more time!" the detective was daring people to "Throw another snowball!".

I won't even touch the car windows breaking with glass embedding into people scenario (safety glass?). It misses the point that there is no excusable reason for the way this officer handled the situation. Even if I were to give the benefit of the doubt to the detectives motives and cast him in the same light as a modern day knight in shining armor the expression "the ends don't justify the means" is applicable here.


BTW the police do not have a legal duty to protect you, they enforce laws. You have a responsibility to your own safety.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lb3rAglRsqU

[Jeepflexin]

Its not a matter of comparing a LEO to a CCW holder, its a matter of recognizing that police are people who must observe the law the same as anyone else. Being a LEO does not entitle them a pass to act inappropriately. Being a LEO doesn't mean they should be placed on some fantastic pedestal. When they mess up they need to be held accountable. Once you recognize this you'll see that a CCW drawing inappropriately is the same as a LEO drawing inappropriately.

Hardly the same thing.

The black officer chose to draw a gun rather than a badge. I've watched a number of different videos of this encounter and none of them show this man holding a badge at any point. This might be why the crowd was panicky and calling 911 about a "man with a gun".

Clearly the drunken mob had no clue he was a cop, as evident by their "f@*k you pig" chant. BTW the crowd was very clearly not panicky they were drunk, big difference.


Even if people were to non-stop pelt him with snowballs that act would not constitute the use of lethal force on the part of this officer. So why draw the gun in the first place, to incite fear? Its inappropriate. I won't accept the use of fear tactics by officers.


Each to their own, I'll never defend a bunch of dumb drunks over an overworked cop who was assaulted and taunted for no reason short of happening to be there.

If this officer was interested in dispersing the crowd for safety reasons why didn't he call in for uniformed help and wait?


Who do you think he would have been talking on the police radio with? Local congressman?


That would have been a rational course of action rather than to get out of his hummer and escalate a situation. Instead of calmly telling people that fun time is over or not to hit passing cars (as other more rational officers later did) he chose to act like a common thug.

Yeah I'm sure asking politely would have resulted in an immediate apology. TIC

The wonderful Samuel L Jackson impression was great though, instead of "Say what one more time!" the detective was daring people to "Throw another snowball!".

While that might seem over the top, neither of us has a good perspective of what it is like to be a cop in DC, I strongly suspect an assertive presence like this is the best way to hold attention of most people a cop encounters. I'd much rather see LEO who were assertive and aggressive to criminals compared to ones that buckle due to political concerns. Also note that when that exchange happened the gun was holstered and back up was on scene.



I won't even touch the car windows breaking with glass embedding into people scenario (safety glass?).

Safety glass still cuts, it just won't break into large shards.


It misses the point that there is no excusable reason for the way this officer handled the situation.

It is the point entirely, had the cop rolled on and just "called it in" there would have been a greater potential for someone uninvolved to have gotten hurt.

Even if I were to give the benefit of the doubt to the detectives motives and cast him in the same light as a modern day knight in shining armor the expression "the ends don't justify the means" is applicable here.

I disagree, agian, no one hurt, no property damage done, the situation had been escalating to the point where the snowball fight participants were attacking non participants, the next step is some one gets hurt.


BTW the police do not have a legal duty to protect you, they enforce laws. You have a responsibility to your own safety.

I'm well aware of that, the crimes were assault on people and attempted vandalism of property. If you don't want to see it that is on you, I've long been disappointed of our "bubble wrap" society where people will excuse the actions of an angry, drunken mob but when a cop pulls his weapon with out already staring down the barrel of a bad guys gun he did wrong. Making this cop the bad guy in this situation is the heart of what is wrong with America.

Look we are both entitled to our opinions, I do not care if I can change you mind on this either, unless the facts as presented change I have no issue with what he did.

[Mr.Skellington]

I'm content to agree to disagree. My last post pretty well summed up how I feel about police being given a pass to act in a manner that would get a normal citizen locked up.

You hold a vastly different perspective of nearly every aspect of this situation including that the crowd was drunk. Since I never intended to change your mind I won't waste any further time with this topic.

[Aries]

Like I said "mix feeling". At one point I was like why pull a firearm because someone hit your vehicle with a snowball. :confused: Then when the crowd got aggressive I felt he may have need to defend his self. But pulling his firearm because he got hit by a snowball is just not right. At no time was his life in danger.

I first learned about this cop on the talk radio here in Sussex and the same type of discussion was going on, the callers were going back and forth.

:closed: